title: "Interview with Maurice about the 12th house - by Scott Silverman NCGR Florida Atlantic" created: 2026-02-28 author: "Maurice Fernandez - Evolutionary Astrology" url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDPqJJ2MFLw" related to: rw-category: "articles"

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2026-02-28 Interview with Maurice about the 12th house - by Scott Silverman NCGR Florida Atlantic

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hi there this is Scott Silverman on behalf of the ncgr Florida Atlantic chapter and we're here to speak briefly with Maurice Fernandez about an upcoming Workshop he'll be doing the 19th of November yes okay and uh the topic of this Workshop it's the 12th house

where the sun rises every morning excellent um I'd like to thank you for taking the time to converse with us and uh my first question is where do you currently reside I mean uh Sedona Arizona oh excellent I did not know that and that was one of my favorite places it's beautiful will you please go to the Chapel of the Holy Cross for me that's one of my

favorite places to sit and meditate so not because of any religious thing I just love the energy and the vibe there um you were born I believe in fujam bruh Burundi did I say that right yep and you came of age in Israel and how did this geographical trajectory come about and before I go any further on behalf of

the ncgr we'd like to wish you a happy birthday because I believe you just had your solo return on the 5th of November I did thank you thank you one more round um yeah growing up in Africa was in a way wonderful uh very sheltered and living in nature was really a blessing

and uh and then yeah we moved to Israel when I was a teenager sorry and um it was you know looking back it was definitely a difficult transition to learn a new language and new alphabet kind of reset everything but at the time I was just in it so I didn't

feel that it was any you know I didn't realize how hard it was why would your family in Africa farming CIA I mean I mean Israeli CIA no no um not that I know they were my father was born in Africa okay you know there were many people

living in Africa um it's just yeah um I I believe his parents basically uh run away from Europe during the war and they you know his father when in many different places he actually tried to get into the U.S and wasn't allowed in and then

you know took his chance and went to Africa and that's that's where he grew up and then he married my mom and slept her to the jungles and so you really grew up with you grew up in the jungle with a lot of what we would call wildlife well you know it's it's the capital city

of okay absolutely embroidering all right but yeah there was a lot of wildlife um national parks and but you know we use the capital city was by a lake and just like in Florida you have to watch the alligators um there in burjumbura we had to be careful of crocodiles and hippos but otherwise

um was yeah nice and beautiful foreign tell me do you still subscribe to earlier models of the 12th house in terms of when it would be called the house of Sultan doing or of Lily would say it might have to do with witchcraft or the occult although I was also always

taught that the 12th house was the house of spiritual liberation and especially the type of Liberation found in seclusion of the 40 days in the wilderness variety you know I do but I'm not limiting myself to that my whole approach to the 12th house which you know I wrote the 500 page book on yes I have a first edition

the second is really worth it there's a lot of changes and it's really improved but just to answer your question I what I feel is that some of these difficult definitions are quite fragmented and people who study astrology are presented with these definitions without understanding why you know what's what's behind it

so my attempt in this study and in the coming presentation is to understand that there's a threat there is some kind of evolutionary development that happens through the 12th house and part of it and I will say like five to ten percent and I would even go more towards the five is that self-undoing and you know addiction issues or

things like that but the deeper deeper meaning of the 12th house is that in many ways it's a gateway to living beyond time and space and living beyond the material dimension so it's it's basically our access to Spiritual Development but it's also our

access to what unifies everything everyone so the reason there's self undoing in the 12th house is because people who have a concentration of energy is there or even you know enough having one planet if it's strategically influential is that there's difficulty integrating into time and space

so in some ways 12 House people feel like they don't really want to be here um they don't understand and I'm generalizing of course you know there are many variables and layers but as a whole archetype there's a feeling that life on a day-to-day basis which is you know paying your bills and and

surviving and facing the daily struggles is so limiting it's so confining when there is such a higher uh and and pure reality you know think about the 12th house opposing the sixth house which has to do with routine so the routine you know doesn't appeal to 12th House people and and scheduling your day is not interesting you know

there there's a feeling that there's much more to life than this so in some ways people with 12th house can feel in you know we tend to think that the 12th house is behind the scenes and hidden but in reality people with strong 12th house are actually the most exposed because they don't have protection they don't um they don't totally understand Danger

and as a result they can feel overwhelmed because they are so exposed because they're such a thin skin and so there can be adaptation issues you know there can be a feeling that they you know they don't want to do this thing called you know having a job and paying your bills

and that can lead to escapism and in whatever way whether it's sugar coating things or trying to um run away from those responsibilities but again that's a small portion of these experiences [Music] um I believe and that's what I want to really dive into as we will explore this

Workshop is to understand the sequence there's some kind of thread and different outcomes like if you understand the main motivation then you can understand what are the possible outcomes so one of the outcomes is the self-undoing so I would agree with the traditional

um definition my point is that it's just a tiny part of it there's much more to the 12th house that's such a great explanation thank you um now I'm really looking forward to the workshop um speaking of escapism do you think isolation or flotation tanks are a 12th house therapeutic after all because the the at the experience of

isolation is complex because the 12th house as I say is also a house where you're the most exposed think about many public figures who have packed 12th house such as Biden you know he's born with a stellium in the 12. and people like Madonna you know did Obama did Obama have a 12th house son

um no he has a sixth house son but he had Saturn Jupiter in the 12. which relate to obviously his career in law and his career in politics you know Saturn Jupiter have to do with leadership with legislation and and law so the 12th house is a house of service and whatever planet or sign is there can definitely be an Avenue of Public

Service and that's that again complements the sixth house of work you mean Public Service without Scandal or self in undoing necessarily I mean people who have a Pac-12 house are people who quite often have to sacrifice their personal need for the greater whole so that doesn't mean necessarily that they're not getting paid for what they're doing

it's definitely can be a job but I see the 12th house as a career house which is a big like whoa what you know you're supposed to be hiding in the mountains when you have a profile but because you're so exposed and because you touch the public and like I mentioned you know you have several public figures with strong 12th house who are constantly in the public eye but they have to they have to overcome sacrifice their

personal wants and so you get to a point with the 12th house where you feel like you're overwhelmed it's too much you know people are constantly around you and you have that thin skin so then the reaction is shutting down hiding because the defense people when people need to defend themselves 12 House people need to defend themselves they're not going to

charge they're not going to confront they're going to disappear Retreat put the drawbridge up exactly yeah so you know the it's it's the weapon of invisibility hiding and all of that but to me that's not the starting point the starting point is not hiding the starting point is actually being out there but because it gets to

be too much because you feel like you're constantly uh exposed to everyone's energy and everyone's thought and you become the object of projection then you need to retreat to just regroup and reconnect with yourself so I would say yes you know you do need to you know cyclically periodically take

time out and remember what I said earlier uh the 12th house is a place where you step out of time and that's exactly what I'm saying it's time out I need time out of my life so I need to you know get out of the rat race or whatever it is but you will also see that the 12th house is the house of vacation

because it's the house where you get out of time where you suddenly you know escape to Paradise you know on your little island and you forget about time and your duties so again um some kind of parallel with the sixth house where the sixth house has to do with work and and showing up and you know being on point the 12th house is

I'm not here I'm not available leave a message right wow do you um associate the 12th house in any way with renewal Resurrection or Ascension good question um Ascension for sure because from a 12th house point of view we

there is a almost a fear a resistance to descend as I said I don't want to be here you know as 12 houses there's a feeling like I don't want to Incarnate I'd rather stay in spirit so the quicker I can Ascend the better at least from that point of view and I'm not saying that's healthy but I'm saying it's often the reaction

so renewal I will say renewal comes through the first house where the 12th house is more of a end of cycle you know that's where you complete and you're done and you feel like you're gifting you know that's why it's a house of service because it's the house where you're actually can be very ripe and you've done your whole 12th

house up to that point and you're ready to just give it back give it back to people give it back to the nation giving back to the Earth and so there is a lot of Letting Go and in that sense It prepares you for the renewal of the first house which the first house I would see as as a new cycle as that new birth

okay um I always think I studied Hellenistic astrology in the early days of Kepler college and Dimitri George was sort of relaying the work of Robert Schmidt to the Kepler students and she was surprised to find out she always thought of herself as a 12th house son but when you use whole sign houses she was suddenly a first house son so do you have any thoughts of the people that actually transform when you switch your house system and I don't know what house

system you use I always like to look at old sign houses but I'm afraid I have to confess I use placidus or porphyry what I started with but dude I mean I think both systems offer a perspective you know um the way I like to look at how system is that they're all windows to the same Central Court so none of the house system gives you a complete picture they just give you an

angle to whatever is happening and so it's healthy actually to change how system and see if there are changes what are your top three Maurice I would I use quadrant house system I do you know to me the ascendant divides you know the upper sky and the lower Sky it makes sense to me um and so if the sun you know didn't rise

yet I don't know why it would be in the 12th house you know in the 12th house we have things that are above the Horizon right and I would go below it actually the 12th house Demars diurnal charts from nocturnal charts so it's actually very important in that sense and that's to me that's a little confusing with the ellenistic tradition that takes set into consideration and yet use this whole sign but you know my

point of view is that there is a rational for conflating sign and houses you know that kind of us you know connection between having a full sign in a house I think keeps a symmetry between the signs um more intact and and there's a reasoning to that you

know astrology has a lot of geometry to it and a lot of symmetry so I think it's worth looking at it but if I look at Evolution which is my choice of practice evolutionary astrology um looking at the quadrant house system seems to be more revealing you know it seems to work better for my Approach

okay sticking with the Hellenistic theme for a moment Saturn is said to be in its joy in the 12th house according to Hellenistic astrology do you have any thoughts on that you know um I'm not a Hellenistic astrologer I have my ideas about that but to me one of the things that I apply when working with evolutionary

astrology is that there is a process nothing is inherently joyful or sad if you know what I mean in the sense that Saturn in the 12 can get you to prison but it can also connect you to spiritual leaders so and make you a spiritual leader so it has the highest virtues but it can also

confine you to a miserable life now as an evolutionary astrologer I'm not just going to tell my client well you have two choices you know be enlightened or rot in jail but I'm going to explain why these could be outcomes because Saturn in the 12th house has to do with the need to understand that we don't only live by man-made laws

we also live by spiritual laws so in some ways people with Saturn in the 12th house can have the highest Integrity the highest ethical guidance because they refer to a spiritual sense of integrity but you will see some people with Saturn in the 12th house who disregard any kind of authority and guidance

and they can be people who get lost in life because there was no authority figure in their lives and they felt uh like Driftwood you know not not having solid grounds so I I wouldn't just narrow it to good or bad I think it's a process and people will experience some of the good

and some of the crisis points but I can see why there's joy in it uh in in that kind of reference well it means that Saturn is happy to be in the 12th house but I'm saying well yeah but I'm saying there's no such guarantee that you're gonna have only the virtues right you know just by by virtue of having a placement like that but if you do predictive work or if you do

horrorary work you know it can mean it can work in such a way using Hellenistic references so for me who's doing more process oriented work psychological and spiritual um we don't use these categories okay um you know I love your work on the lunar nodes

um do you and I like how you're not just in one place about North Node South node you really believe in finding the balance point between them and where they meet halfway what would you tell someone that has the North Node in the 12th or the South node in the 12th would you necessarily tell them very different things of course we the rest of the chart is involved but true well there's a whole chapter on the book

just on the nodes in this in those houses in the book on Neptune yeah yeah okay in the new edition at least um but one thing I will say you know I do from my experience at least I do see that the South node is what you're bringing to this life okay and so the North Node is a point of development it is a gravitational pull but what I

what I would differ from differ from other definition perhaps is that my point of view is that you bring the South node with you like it's a good asset it's not something you get rid of so even though you're coming with it it doesn't represent weaknesses it represents assets things that you've developed it's it's actually a point of strength but then you can't just stay there you need to

embrace that balancing polarity of the North Node and so life will constantly challenge you to learn about the North Node so if you're coming from a 12th House South node you may be someone who you know had spiritual consciousness who was connected to higher truths but you had

difficulty or or the challenge now would be to bring it down to earth how to bring Spirit into matter so many people with 12th House South node can be very gifted but they may be a bit awkward about what to do with themselves you know it's like I have so much potential but I don't have strategy so that's the North Node in the sixth house is grounded you know make

something useful out of it um sit down and write your book you know don't just have it in your head and the other way around is when you have a South node in the six you may be very strategic and very grounded and you need a lot of control because you're someone who has you know can fix things but you you can end up anxious you know

the South node in the sixth can end up um in a way not trusting wanting to be everywhere to pay attention to everything and it can lead to anxiety and so the 12th House North Node is about understanding what's not up to you you know realizing there's there's a greater reality out there and you can't control it all

so that North Node in the 12th house means Let It Go embrace you know trust I would say the word trust would be surrender is an old word for the 12th house too yeah well trust and surrender are linked in a way I mean you cannot surrender without trusting exactly I'm gonna I'm gonna change gears here and you've written so much on Neptune and I

couldn't hope but notice that in about two months you're gonna have uh Neptune squaring your moon do you have any expectations for the transit are you just going to let it happen are you going to try to forget what you know about Neptune Square the moon well I think it's not the first pass so okay I had a taste of it and my moon is 23 Gemini so Mars retrograde is having a

run you know knock on woods so far so good um definitely a lot of need to improvise you know kind of go day by day rather than make long-term plans um so what am I expecting I you know I hope I'm going to have time

and carve the time to write more with the Gemini Moon because it's one of the reason why I stepped down from Opa is to make more time for writing okay so that's that's your answer you um you were once planning to study Sound Engineering but astrology seems to have won out have you investigated any of the research done on the Music of the Spheres or even things like accutonics

which tries to merge uh sound healing with astrology or does merge and it doesn't try to merge does actually merge yes I have um not enough that I can be an authority on it but it's definitely you know it's frequency it's and and there's no doubt that all these different mediums

mirror each other and I can you know I can definitely uh I know I haven't I have explored that experimented with that but there's nothing I can really say that I have concretely worked with now I would recommend some of the work that Gemini Brett did with that because he he explored uh some of these references

with musical notes and planets and it's a lot of fun it is fascinating and I'm pretty sure Gemini Brett is doing a workshop for this group later in the year so this is good to know um you have a very psychic chart how much of a role does intuition play in your astrological readings everything I say I can find it in the chart

so there's nothing in that sense that is just psychic and I'm not referring it however at the same time you know the whole book about Neptune was a download it was a chat it was almost channeled I would say so because what you know the way it started is that I why write about Neptune in the first

place certainly not a plan that I made so it happened very spontaneously and the way it happened is that I usually don't take notes when I teach and for some reason I sat down and started to take notes and in a very uh surprising way a lot of material came through and I kept writing and writing and writing

and you mean keep on okay yeah I mean one thought would lead to another and another and then I I did not know initially what I what I was writing like this was new to me this was new insights these were not things I learned somewhere else and I had to test it because I was

writing it down but I needed to validate what I was writing and I so I did a lot of research working with charts and trying to apply this knowledge and so that's why you know it took a while to write the book and then to write the second edition which kind of built on that ability to refine that bulk that was downloaded so there was definitely you know some

kind of channeling happening um but again when I whatever I do I do refer it to the charts ultimately okay excellent um I couldn't help but notice you have an out of bounds moon in your chart and I'm wondering if you work with declination at all I do um and at the same time you know

I'm not dramatizing the out of bound as something that's really crazy as it often is because you know every planet that's going to be on the solstice points is has higher chances of being out of bound whether it's end of Gemini early cancer and of sag and early Capricorn so these are the regions where the planets will be out of

bound because they're further away from the um you know the planes of the between the ecliptic and the celestial equator so I don't know what you know my moon we can say I'm an astrologer which is crazy uh there's there's eccentricity in that but if you ask me my life's pretty

normal from my subjective point of view uh what would you expect as an out of bound moon like what would you attribute to it I'm still researching it and when I have Advanced some of the theory to people without abounds moons it can it can it can make them disagree vociferously um but I think I've I've been out of

bounds Venus I've been out of bounds Mars so I like out of bounds planets myself right and uh I think it's it I do a lot of work with declination so I just find the whole declination uh portion of astrology very fascinating I always like to look at the different coordinate systems and see where they're telling you the same thing and where they're telling you very different things right yeah um let's talk a little bit we're gonna

have to wrap up let's talk a little bit about your work with the white lines and I think inner species communication is kind of an interest of yours or reality of yours and again I would think that could be a very 12 ounce thing um have you looked at have you been around have you had the opportunity where you are around Animal Companions and you have their time charts and you've been

able to work making connections between how they are and their birth charts and I will say I did have friends that had a great dane and the breeder would write down to the second when the different pups were born this dog lived out its chart let me tell you and it had a it had a grand Trine and it was in air I think it was a little high strung so

um absolutely I mean you know like you say I I might part of my I've had Gemini in the 12th house so that communication that can be you know beyond verbal and linear also Mercury Neptune conjunct uh I think adds to that and I've always always felt very close to animals sometimes because I can

remember as a kid that humans people were scaring me and I found animals to be safe so there was something about my connection that started you know very early on and I will definitely see now and as an astrologer you know I had the privilege of having my mama cat give birth right

on my bed as I was nursing her and being the Doula oh actually so I had you know three kitten born in the space of half an hour and that day the day it happened the moon was to the minute on my son and there you know she was giving birth on my bed and I was there so you know I there's obviously a

connection and what happened is that the as you usually do when you have kittens you find them homes and you hope for the best but every time I try to find them homes uh something would happen and then someone actually came and wanted to get one of them and I said no I'm not giving him to you and so I ended up basically that Moon

Sun connection meant that they were not going anywhere I'm going I was going to be their their dad and their mother and father with that movie mother and father and and very deeply connected you know psychically and emotionally but as you mentioned the white lions specifically you know would you just tell us a little bit tell our viewers a little bit about the work you've been doing with the white lines I believe you

have a non-profit organization if I'm not mistaken it's not mine but I have been here yes oh it's called white lions uh dot o r g our mutual friend Lynn Hyde went on one of your trips absolutely yes it's just how I know about it so it's a it's a very rare type of lion that only occurs naturally in

South Africa particularly on the east side of South Africa there's a place called Timbavati and Tim bavati Means Timber is lion and vati's sky so it's the place where the Lions came from the sky and happens to be you know aligned with the pyramids of Egypt and we know that the Egyptian had a very strong connection with cats and lions

so these white lions are very very rare and I would suggest to read about lion shamanism by the book by Linda Tucker mystery of the white lions if you want to find out more but just to touch on that my work with the conservation is not only an ecological effort to preserve the species because in what in South Africa there's a whole

hunting trophy hunting Lobby and people like to hunt lions and put them on their walls so there's that aspect of just conservation you know why not protect endangered species but there's also a spiritual Dimension that really caught me and what was really fascinating is that when I first encountered them I I

I wrote about the charts and the astrology to the head of that non-profit her name Linda Tucker and lo and behold she was so fascinated by astrology she had studied astrology and we started to make connections between all the events and the births of the Lions and the timing of their birth with certain fixed Stars the regulars and

serious and um and so amazing synchronicity because we had that privilege to have birth dates um because as a non-profit she was monitoring them you know they had colors and satellite tracking and so she could

know when they gave birth so that kind of brought astrology into understanding the patterns that these Lions respond to and you know one day there's going to be a book about that oh good I'm I was hoping you had written it up but we're planning to wonderful all right well that's something to look forward to I have a million other questions to ask you but I'm going to wrap this up but I

have to ask if you believe in love at first sight and Animal Companions count is are these two questions or one question it's one question because do you believe in love at first sight but this could also be inner species love at first sight I I believe in Soul connection for sure and so I will say yes

okay great it's in your chart Uranian uranium style um is there anything anyone needs to do to prepare to come to the workshop should they print out a particular chart or should they just come and be open to receive yeah I think that's the most important thing because a lot of what I'm going to share you know may sound at first like you know another guy coming up with his

far-fetched theories so to me um it's not far-fetched you know it's something that has been tested and it really gives life to the 12th house so my my suggestion is to definitely come open-minded but then don't take my word for it test it yourself see if it applies

in your chart in your lives then take it from there I think we do need to learn more about the 12 files because it is severely misunderstood in astrology I think that astrologers are getting lost in that house I think it's so great in terms of your chart that you are focusing on the 12th house and I have two more kind of 12th house questions

I'll ask you very quickly I read somewhere that you said you've never seen a ghost but you had a fight with one hahaha is this a story I mean that's the story um I was I was sleeping in the house I was a guest in the house of a woman who was doing a lot of psychic work and a lot of it was very unprotected

yeah um yeah and so in the middle of the night around the you know not middle but around four in the morning I started to feel these presence and you know how can you describe a presence you you can't but when you're in it you suddenly know that there's something there and I was semi-asleep which is very weird you may

think well did you dream it or was it a reality and then this thing started to literally push my head on the pillow I was leaning on my side and pushed my head on the pillow and I couldn't move wow and I was basically pinned down on my bed violently and then it started drilling into my ear like a Vortex of wind and energy and it

it was terrible and you know in these moments it's almost like you know you don't think rationally the adrenaline is pumping and I had no fear for some reason even though I was you know in this surreal position um

but then I commended this thing to get out and leave me and it did and I had a ear infection for the following days so I guess that was kind of the proof that I didn't dream it oh wow well I hope to never be a guest in that

household I'm not sure I would handle it as gracefully um yeah I'll I'll just leave you with a final question um to what extent do the charts and stories of other people Fascinate You how much of an emphasis if any does on storytelling or metanarrative framing or as as Jacqueline at isar used to say

reframing um play a part in your chart work sure I you know I remember Jacqueline I forget her last name uh uh James thank you yes she wrote a chapter about a two in one of the Oppa books about reframing so I'm definitely fascinated you know I

love my work I love working with people so I I don't think you can be a good astrologer if you're not interested in people and helping them I mean hearing personal stories and and you know it's a very intimate space and it's a Sacred Space and if you don't enjoy it it I can imagine that it would be really

a burden so I I do think that part of what drives me is not only the need and the you know the the fascination with bringing astrology so that it can help people the way it helped me because that was my experience astrology was um you know kept me sane but it's also a study into Human

Experience when you go through the stories and you hear what people go through or or superficial or meaningful it adds puzzle to the to the mysteries of life so to me it's an ongoing exploration of why are we here and what's you know what is this all about and

every client adds to that thank you so much I'm going to cut myself off because that will just lead to another question I will see you at the workshop and I am going to stop the recording is there anything you'd like to add Before We Say Goodbye happy Eclipse everyone yes huh and I hope to see you on November 19th

live or recording right they can get a recording that's right okay now let's see if I can actually even stop the recording but don't go away Maurice